00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:02

Mark Britz

Well welcome everybody. I am Mark Britz. I'm the senior director of learning and development at Prossimo Global Partners. it's been a little while since I've done a webinar, and I'm really excited to be here as I've shared a little bit on LinkedIn. because I'm joined today, by Phil Harkins. Phil, if you don't know, Phil, which I'm assuming many of you do because you've been involved in the skill sprint up to this point.

00:00:24:02 - 00:00:47:01

Mark Britz

And I've been introduced to a lot of the concepts and the work that Phil has done. I mean, it's Phil, really, it's hard to pin down all you've done in your career, but I'll do my best to highlight a few things. I mean, Phil's an author, business developer, business leader. but also, a top 50 executive coach and advisor to a lot of, organizations worldwide.

00:00:47:03 - 00:00:59:11

Mark Britz

And, most importantly for our conversation today, Phil is here to talk about powerful conversations. And, the real value in, in having and holding those. So, Phil, welcome.

00:00:59:13 - 00:01:24:01

Phil Harkins

Yeah. Thank you, Marco. Pleasure to be here. And, thank you for indicating that I would you know, it was a was recognized as a top 50 coach. And, the way it happened is, a number of years ago, before coaches were ranked or anything, Marshall goes and, he called me and said, Phil, you know, there's no ranking of coaches in the, in the United States or in the world.

00:01:24:03 - 00:01:41:07

Phil Harkins

do you want to be number one and number two, I prefer I prefer number one because we're going to put this thing together and write a book on it. So that's great. Anyway, it's fun to be here. I'm really excited to talk about powerful conversations. My favorite topic. So great. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me Mark I yeah.

00:01:41:09 - 00:02:05:06

Mark Britz

Yeah it's it's awesome the opportunity. So, I want to remind everybody here, we're here for 45 minutes and it's going to be a conversation. I've got a lot of questions for Phil. but it's not about me. It's about the audience. So to the Q&A is enabled. So during the course of our conversation, if anybody has a question, feel free to ask that question and I'll surface that up for Phil to address.

00:02:05:08 - 00:02:27:12

Mark Britz

and many of you might be familiar with Phil's work on powerful conversations. Maybe you are involved in the skill sprint like I just mentioned, or maybe this is brand new. So we're going to want to dig into the nuance that a little bit. But my first question do you feel is kind of a level setting question? You know, what what was it that inspired you, you know, to write powerful conversations in the first place?

00:02:27:14 - 00:02:54:05

Phil Harkins

Yeah, that's a that's one question. I had thought about it much better. But the reason I wrote the book is that firstly, the I had observed leaders around the world and the ones who were really impactful were the ones who are the ones that could really connect and communicate, from their heart. so I decided to really take a hard look at it and dealt with some very interesting people.

00:02:54:05 - 00:03:30:04

Phil Harkins

And we talked to leaders and all facets of life and discovered that there was some commonalities about it. And, and that was that was interesting to me because the reason that I wanted to write the book is I never thought of myself as a great communicator. I'm just on the run doing different things. It wasn't it never entered my mind, but I knew I needed it and I needed I needed a way to connect with people the way I wanted to.

00:03:30:06 - 00:04:02:22

Phil Harkins

And I grew up in an Irish immigrant family and and, it wasn't a lot of listening. In fact, you know, it was really hard in a, you know, a family with, you know, ten people. And it was very small and very small house to to even be heard. On things and so I struggled with it and my mentor Warren Bennis, so I talked about it quite a bit and he said you should, you should write it Phil, because there are no books on communication.

00:04:02:24 - 00:04:31:03

Phil Harkins

And as leaders and that's what leaders do. And his words he said all leaders talk. But it's the power of their talk that really determines whether they win or lose. Right. And so it seemed that the book needed to be written. And so I decided to write it and said, well, maybe I'll learn something for myself on it in my family and that sort of thing, and maybe it'll work.

00:04:31:05 - 00:05:01:20

Phil Harkins

And then in the middle of it, what happened is, is that if you ever looked at the book, is that my wife, who I had met at 15 at a in a beach and, became very, very ill and she was a great communicator, I mean, incredible communicator. She people love to be around her. And as I was researching this, I learned it was because she had the capacity to listen.

00:05:01:22 - 00:05:34:23

Phil Harkins

not interrupt. And she always said to someone, wow, that's it. Tell me more. And I realized that little phrase, tell me more was like, incredibly important. And I started doing it just in practice. And then she got sicker, unfortunately. And, and she didn't she didn't make it. And it was a very hard time in life. and I was doing a lot of work in health care at that particular time where I was trained in health care and very passionate about it.

00:05:34:23 - 00:05:55:13

Phil Harkins

And so she got very good care. I got to see her a lot because I have a badge and and we had we ended up having and I thought, because when you meet someone at 15 and you get married to them at 20 and it's children, okay. And she was in one graduate school, I was in another. And, and, she was listening and I wasn't.

00:05:55:15 - 00:06:22:03

Phil Harkins

And, and it was, quite comical for a 20 year old guy that grew up in a family like mine that. And so what happened is I realized that I could start really listening to her, and, and I started accusing her of the same things to ask her, like what you really needed. Right? What did she really want from me?

00:06:22:05 - 00:07:03:24

Phil Harkins

And we had many tearful discussions about things, of course. And then, you know, tragedy that happens. But we became way closer than all the other years. During that year, we had so many fun conversations and categorized them and, and, it was just a really wonderful period of time on that side of that. And, and I think maybe one of the phrases that she used to me at that time really profoundly affected me for the rest of my life, because when she said to me at the middle of this, she said, you've never told me how afraid you're.

00:07:04:01 - 00:07:29:10

Phil Harkins

Yeah. I'm like, I'm Irish. Afraid to nothing. Grew up in Charlestown, you know, Ben Affleck and, you know, company and other good Will hunting and the rest of it afraid of no one. And she said, tell me. And I said, I'm good, I'm good. You're going to be okay. You're going to be good. she said, maybe not the best care in the world.

00:07:29:12 - 00:08:02:19

Phil Harkins

She said. Your failure to kill me. Philip actually said, your optimism is overwhelming all the time. It's hard to accept your optimism. Everything isn't going to be all right about everything. And for the first time, it struck me that I hadn't dealt at all with what I was feeling, right? I was just I was I was in I was in seeing to act three or whatever, like playing a role of the of the positive support partner and all that.

00:08:02:20 - 00:08:23:05

Phil Harkins

And I really got real with myself. And that's when the writing, long after she passed, Warren said, called me up and he said, Phil, back to you, said Philip, because he knew that that's what that copy said. So when's his book getting done? I said, I don't have the heart for it right now. I can't do it.

00:08:23:10 - 00:08:51:16

Phil Harkins

It's too personal. He said, Philip, we need to have a powerful conversation. There was hence the title that became the title. Yeah. And I said, what do you mean by a by a powerful conversation? He said, that's what this book is going to be about us and this father of leadership, your friend and mentor. And I learned tremendously from him because he also like and that listened.

00:08:51:18 - 00:09:10:23

Phil Harkins

So that's where the very important tool in the book, it's not that complicated. You just have to listen most of the time. Yeah. Say tell me more. So you truly understand and then pull it all together and summarize. And that became the heart of the book look. And so yeah that's it.

00:09:11:00 - 00:09:35:04

Mark Britz

Yeah. That leads me to another question. And that is, you know, the book is full of resources. It's a it's a process. And it takes somebody on a journey, you know, how to to move forward in a powerful conversation. But from your perspective, what would you say? You know, our are the, you know, the 1 to 2 key principles, of a powerful conversation that that we need to remember.

00:09:35:06 - 00:10:15:12

Phil Harkins

Yeah. It's the other thing that I learned from Warren and Promenade is that the going second is an art form. Yeah. So the first principle of powerful conversations is you get what you want by giving others what they need. Come the Warren. You always say that okay. First so that seeking. So it's almost like you have to be when you're listening to someone saying to yourself, what is that person thinking, feeling, wanting and needing?

00:10:15:14 - 00:10:29:12

Phil Harkins

not just with the words that they're saying, what's what's behind it. And you watch the great politicians can't think of any recent ones, by the way, but the ones I, you know, the ones that that really knew how to connect.

00:10:29:16 - 00:10:31:01

Mark Britz

Yeah, yeah.

00:10:31:06 - 00:10:56:01

Phil Harkins

And John Kennedy for sure. Why was he so good at communicating? He listened and but somehow or another, it's that art being able to read people. And that came up with an idea that I had, I called it to I listen, okay, so I called Warren one day, and I said, Warren, I said he's figured out something.

00:10:56:03 - 00:11:16:13

Phil Harkins

And he said, well, there's science behind that. What you're telling me is that most people listen with one eye. Left eye to left eye. And what it does is it allows you to be not centered so that you can think about other things. So if you want to really be in a conversation and that's an important conversation.

00:11:16:15 - 00:11:39:24

Phil Harkins

Yeah. With someone just look at them with two eyes. Be absolutely attentive. Keep in your mind what are they thinking, feeling wanting and needing. And all of a sudden you own that relationship at it and that part of it. And anytime I do that, it's kind of a magical thing with people. And they, they you connect in a way, right away and you can sense it.

00:11:40:01 - 00:12:15:04

Phil Harkins

It's like their shields goes down. So there you go. That's the first principle of that. Yeah. The second, the other only important one on that is, is that and that's the principle is that the, you know, the somehow or another that when you're, when you're thinking about important conversations is don't wing it. And that's, that's been important to me because Irish families particularly I speak from my own ethnicity.

00:12:15:06 - 00:12:38:11

Phil Harkins

They're just blabbing you know, they're going on you know like it's not, it's so you're not really. And when they're about to have when they're, when they're angry at someone, they call it mad on and mad on someone. Right. Yeah. Okay. Irish, you know, they might come out on someone that. And, and but to have that conversation with someone is usually confrontational.

00:12:38:13 - 00:13:08:12

Phil Harkins

Someone will spurt out something. Yeah. And that's not what a powerful conversation is because if you're going to go second then what you going to realize is that you got to be with the other person is there and then realized, and that's where this tower came up. Because the tower of power, I mean, it's a it came as a result of this guy, Steve Williamson, who was a great friend and, and, early on in our careers and in our former lives.

00:13:08:13 - 00:13:32:15

Phil Harkins

And we did a lot of consulting together. And he was brilliant. Yeah, lots of ways. And he said, Phil, what you're talking about. And I asked him about this and how do you how do you organize, how do you organize what we are? Another person is, so you can be where they are, where they're at. It. And he said and he drew it, quite frankly, I went to him.

00:13:32:19 - 00:13:50:05

Phil Harkins

He drew it and said, think of it as a horror film. Okay. We've started talking about it in the Tower of Power. Is has saved me many times. And because this allowed me to really plan for an important conversation.

00:13:50:07 - 00:13:53:13

Mark Britz

So let me see if I want to do, let me see if I can share it. So while you're talking.

00:13:53:13 - 00:13:55:08

Phil Harkins

Oh wow, that's huge. That's great.

00:13:55:14 - 00:13:56:24

Mark Britz

If I can pull that up real quick and.

00:13:56:24 - 00:14:02:02

Phil Harkins

Make that's magic to me. I don't know how you do that, but, there you go.

00:14:02:03 - 00:14:05:19

Mark Britz

There you go. Now you can speak to it. Go ahead and film front.

00:14:05:21 - 00:14:12:00

Phil Harkins

Well, I don't know if it's not on there. Is there one with the swamp underneath? Two. Does the swamp show up?

00:14:12:02 - 00:14:13:21

Mark Britz

I have to advance it. I think that's.

00:14:13:21 - 00:14:40:02

Phil Harkins

No, no, no, that's okay. That's on the second one. But imagine that green stuff underneath. Underneath the tower. Yeah. So that so go back to the tower. And so this is what Steve and I developed this, this concept of there are different elements of an important conversation like what's going on, what's happening at the bottom, what's factual, what's really so and then what's possible.

00:14:40:04 - 00:15:06:11

Phil Harkins

And then let's go right. And then when you get into personality and communication styles and how people like to discuss things is what happens is that the people have different needs. And you got to figure out where to start an important conversation. Yeah. So if you're dealing with someone and they're very contextual, textual, and they're more inclined to want to start with what's going on.

00:15:06:11 - 00:15:34:15

Phil Harkins

So if you start with facts, they're inclined to go into the swamp, which is where they it's really hard to get out of the swamp. We found out in our writing and thinking, yeah, because in the swamp, it's a lot of other swamp people, you know, they keep you in the swamp, but your mind goes into it. And recently not in the book, but it's come to me and working with so many people and leaders and leaders of teams is extrapolation, okay?

00:15:34:20 - 00:16:05:06

Phil Harkins

Because you get into a very important conversation and people extrapolate. Extrapolation is really means that what happens is that the people are inclined to interpret what you're saying and then make assumptions based upon what you've said. Okay. And then they go up their own ladder of inference, which is what this guy, Chris Rodger's famous theorist who I studied with, talked a lot about.

00:16:05:08 - 00:16:30:00

Phil Harkins

And a lot of the errors happen and the bias comes in there. Things get noisy and actions. So the hardest thing to do is to keep a an important conversation going up this pyramid. So my my real when I, when I looked at it, I was very selfish in my thinking about conversations in my life because I think maybe some others are too.

00:16:30:01 - 00:16:51:00

Phil Harkins

So you want to get to what you want to get to, like let's go home. And I'm a very action oriented person who doesn't always show it, but I'm anxious to get there in my impatience and distress can show even more so that I can get to let's go real fast and move up this thing very quickly. Some people don't.

00:16:51:02 - 00:17:14:03

Phil Harkins

They need you to be there for them. What, what's up for them? Or that's what they want or what's possible for them. So the important thing about in a powerful conversation is to get two people or a group of people going up this pyramid together. And I saw you had this other one, if you put it up, Mark, which is, which is the two ladders.

00:17:14:03 - 00:17:40:23

Phil Harkins

And they're really like ladders of inference in the sense that. So what happens in a conversation, and I've had many of them, is that, you know, there's two ladders and and I'm an action oriented person. I like to get there fast. Yeah. And some people very much more patient. And one two goes very carefully up there. Let's see where you are, where they are.

00:17:41:00 - 00:18:06:16

Phil Harkins

So the value of this two ladder exercise is to get you into in a powerful conversation, which is always about something important. Because by the way, powerful conversations don't happen all the time. I'm there. They happen for a reason. There's always a result. And most conversations or conversations or they're didactic, which is, hey, Joe, you know, like, Mary, we got to get this done.

00:18:06:18 - 00:18:29:22

Phil Harkins

Let's see if we can get let's assign this work, whatever it is. It's not. It's just transactional. But when you try to solve a problem, create a change, drive transformation and get people to go where maybe they don't even want to go. Yeah. You got to be really careful, because that swamp is hard to get out of. like Steve Williamson called it the House of horrors.

00:18:29:24 - 00:18:56:23

Phil Harkins

And, you know, he drew a picture for me one time with snakes and alligators and all kinds of things. But the thing about the swamp is that people actually feel good in the swamp sometimes because other people are in the swamp and they can be good friends in the swamp. Right? Yet to get to action and to move things forward in business and in life and in families, and just try to plan a family vacation with with a good sized family to celebrate an anniversary.

00:18:56:23 - 00:19:21:08

Phil Harkins

And you know what I mean? Yeah, everybody has a different idea and different things, and it's hard to coordinate people's minds. Right? I use I use these two ladders to prepare for really difficult conversations. So I'll tell you a quick, very quick story is that my youngest son was really my wife passed. And so I was, to raise him by myself, which was a scary thought at the time.

00:19:21:08 - 00:19:41:11

Phil Harkins

And for anybody that knew me without a and and I'm sure he was scared at the time, he was just 12 years old and, and, but then he was this perfect close. I mean, if he then the next kid above him, I would have had to commit myself, you know, to write them by myself. But, yeah, this kid was an easy guy, you know, he was fun to be around.

00:19:41:11 - 00:20:00:14

Phil Harkins

He was helpful, smart and super soft to this, six year medical program and fancy school and and life was good. And, you know, he was seemed to be happy, you know, so happy that he seemed so relieved. And I called him up one day and I said, how are things you haven't I haven't heard from you in a month.

00:20:00:14 - 00:20:20:12

Phil Harkins

And we usually talk all the time. And he said, I'm, I'm fine. And I'm like, no, what's really going on? You sound fine. And like anything wrong, so, well, maybe you don't want to hear this, but I quit school and I'm like, what? To quit school? Oh my God, what's going on? And I thought, drugs. I thought all kinds of things.

00:20:20:12 - 00:20:37:03

Phil Harkins

Right. like, my mind was a mess. And of course, I was already trying to get to my assistant to get a plane ticket out to be with him, because I knew something was wrong on the plane on the way up. What I did is I was doing what everybody normally does to prepare. I got to get him back in school.

00:20:37:05 - 00:21:01:16

Phil Harkins

Yeah. Instead of thinking what's happening with John? and so finally, in the middle of the plane, I plane was jumping around and I all of a sudden said, Phil, two letters, prepare for this conversation. You can lose this kid forever if you go the wrong direction, you know, and it could have been true. So I decided to play out and said, okay, what's on John's mind?

00:21:01:16 - 00:21:18:11

Phil Harkins

What's going on? Well, you don't know what's up with him. What's the best place to start conversation like we have to have. And so I started working for like two hours. you know, it was up, you know, on my way to the West Coast. So I had a lot of time, and I spent the whole time doing it.

00:21:18:11 - 00:21:38:03

Phil Harkins

And then I use 70 2010 and we went for a walk on a hike, and he was very quiet down, but I didn't say much. And so we're walking along and I decided just to be quiet and wait for him. And he said, well, I suppose you want to talk about this. And I said, when you're ready, right?

00:21:38:06 - 00:21:58:20

Phil Harkins

So I said, where would you like to start this conversation? He said, I don't know, like a regular 20 year old at that particular time. And I said, I said, I think you're one of those people that is very factual, guys. And you know me, I'm like, action. I like things in my mind. But I want to start where you are.

00:21:58:22 - 00:22:22:21

Phil Harkins

Yeah. And he said, well, nerves. So that was about context and meaningfulness. I said, well tell me about that. So I use tell me instead of the 20%, instead of just kept asking questions. you know like nicely. So creating fear in the book I wrote on that the enemies of powerful conversation is create fear threat of embarrassment.

00:22:22:23 - 00:22:41:03

Phil Harkins

so you get this 20 year old guy that kind of grew up single with his I together. And it is it is years. And this is the first time we've ever had this kind of a situation where he was doing something in a way that he was worried that I was going to be angry at him, and that's what he said.

00:22:41:03 - 00:23:01:10

Phil Harkins

He said, I was afraid you're going to be angry at me if I tell you the truth. and I said, John, please tell me I can handle it. Right. So just feel free not going to criticize and overreact. Believe me. And he said, are you ready for this? And I said, okay, I think so. Tell me please.

00:23:01:12 - 00:23:24:01

Phil Harkins

And he said, I don't want to be a doctor. So, okay. Got it. So anything else you said, you ready for this? And I said, yeah, I guess so. Just tell me I'm okay. And he said, I want to be an artist. Of course. Then my head exploded. I was like, oh my God, inside you never going to quit job.

00:23:24:01 - 00:23:47:12

Phil Harkins

You're never going to think. But I was like, oh my God. You know, I'm like, I panicked in my head, yeah, but not not there. I just said, tell me more. How did you figure that out? I want to know. And I kept at it. And from there I want to continue with that. He went off to San Francisco Arts Institute and, he's very happy person today.

00:23:47:12 - 00:24:12:16

Phil Harkins

He lives in our farm in Vermont. Here's for here's for the animals. Does this uses his science all over the place for different things. You're trying to get other degrees, right? He's a great guy and we have a great relationship. But I could have Marc. I could have blown it. Yeah. And that one situation. So that kind of tells you how you can't you have to prepare for an important conversation of this conversation.

00:24:12:16 - 00:24:33:13

Phil Harkins

You got a group, you're trying to change them. You're trying to work with the someone that works for you. And they're not they're not playing. You got to. You got to be where they are. And if you rush it, if you go beyond what their needs are, they go to the swamp. And John is the type of guy that just would have gone totally quiet and I would have lost.

00:24:33:15 - 00:24:36:20

Phil Harkins

And that's the true story. So.

00:24:36:22 - 00:25:09:24

Mark Britz

It I want to bring this up real quick. We did have a question from the audience. Kim was asking because you're talking about the importance of the discussion or of the planning piece. And Kim asked this question. She says, is it okay to postpone the discussion in order to, to plan to get your plan right? You know, if the discussion is kind of started and, you know, you want to step back, I'm assuming, Kim, I'm using some liberties with with what you wrote, but I want to let Phil respond to is it okay to postpone to plan for that discussion?

00:25:10:01 - 00:25:36:24

Phil Harkins

Tim. That's a brilliant question. And, you know, you have your own answer is that it's easiest thing because most people are nervous. And these kinds of things and, and and it's also not only when but where, you know, like I have this friend client, you know, he works for very long term client or company, and his name is Lockland Carey.

00:25:37:01 - 00:26:02:11

Phil Harkins

And what he does with people for power, powerful conversation. He goes for walks. Yeah. And and so it's called to walk with lot one and and so when he wants to bring up something but he patiently follows that. But he uses it as a walk will always plan as opposed to when it's when and with this become who we with you Mark I would say, Mark, let's put a time when it's most comfortable for you.

00:26:02:13 - 00:26:03:08

Mark Britz

Got it?

00:26:03:10 - 00:26:28:16

Phil Harkins

Because you're going with you're giving the other person what they need first on it. I want you to be there. And is there anything you want me to prepare for it? Let me know. I really would love to have this conversation. I want it to be about you. So, Tim, the answer is yes. you know, there's it's absolutely the right thing to do because I have learned the hard way with rushing it, you know, you end up saying the wrong thing.

00:26:28:16 - 00:26:39:07

Phil Harkins

And I have other stories that you take with you have done that. But it's a brilliant question and I use it all the time that way. And, and advice other people to do the same.

00:26:39:09 - 00:26:55:15

Mark Britz

And Phil, you, you shared, you know, if you answer the question I was going to go into because I powerful conversations for a lot of people is it's kind of a business focused. Right. Initially, I think that's how it's taken and that's important. But you tied it in very nicely with sharing, like how it's used in everyday life.

00:26:55:19 - 00:27:17:01

Mark Britz

And so I'm going to jump a little bit into, you know, it's a lot of questions. But one of the things I'm curious about is, you know, how do how do these powerful conversations contribute to, you know, effective leadership, you know, an influence inside of and or inside of an organization? so if you could elaborate a little bit on that, how people use that for that purpose.

00:27:17:03 - 00:27:34:19

Phil Harkins

Well, kind of go backwards on I think what you're saying on that mark is that I hope everybody knows this is not rehearsed. We have three here. Oh no. But the reality is, is that that, you know, it's,

00:27:34:21 - 00:28:02:20

Phil Harkins

You know, there's so much there's so much involved with, powerful conversations and, and like the prior one, in terms of, of, you know, getting, getting it really clear what you want, I can't, you know, concentrate on what the other person wants. What is it going back to John. The John situation on that is that we're with him.

00:28:02:22 - 00:28:24:15

Phil Harkins

My the part that I came to on the plane about that is what is it? What does he want to walk away with at the end of the conversation? Right. What's the walk away with? And that walk away with part of it? I use a lot to get there because whole chapter six of the book is about powerful conversations and trust.

00:28:24:17 - 00:28:50:18

Phil Harkins

It's always a risk on it and authenticity. And this person know that you're, you're you're coming from a place in this conversation which is you want to get results. But you got to, you got to really kind of play it out and ask the same question again. Again just so I want to make sure I'm answering it exactly.

00:28:50:20 - 00:29:08:22

Mark Britz

I mean you're touching on the key piece I think the authenticity. But what I was after too is just understanding like with powerful conversation. How does it, you know, that authenticity piece that you're mentioning, you know, how does it affect, you know, leadership and influence? You know, in, in the organization?

00:29:08:24 - 00:29:34:22

Phil Harkins

The influence part of it. And, you're an expert at that person. That the influence part of it is all leaders want to be inspiration. And I assume that most everybody on this would think of yourself as a leader, but you're a leader in your life, your leadership leader in your community. You're a leader in your work, your leader.

00:29:34:24 - 00:29:42:17

Phil Harkins

The thing about being a leader is most leaders want to be influential.

00:29:42:19 - 00:29:43:14

Mark Britz

Yeah.

00:29:43:16 - 00:30:06:08

Phil Harkins

They want to be able to. They want to be able to get somewhere. And that's why I started with this idea. The vote results. Because as a young person going off into the work world, I was always known as, as fast filled. That's a bad it wasn't a, it wasn't a polite thing I learned in the funny way.

00:30:06:14 - 00:30:34:24

Phil Harkins

Yeah. Because that I would always go fast. I was trying to get to the influence. Move, move move, get things done and, and and so people saw me as impatient. Yeah. That they saw that I was, I was losing my power of influence by rushing. And then I watched Warren Bennis so often as my mentor, so lucky to have him.

00:30:35:01 - 00:31:13:12

Phil Harkins

As he had that power of always it seeming like he was not rushing and he used the tools. Tell me more. Right. And then he would the influence part of powerful conversations comes if you look at the tools 7020 1070 of it is listening, 20 of it is this whole part of it is inquiring. And the last part of it is your turn to sum it up and to create the influence that you've learned from the discussion to say, Mark, you and I have had this discussion of I've learned a lot.

00:31:13:14 - 00:32:01:04

Phil Harkins

I hope you get something out of it as well. I thought I'd recap and see if we have it right. Yeah, I want to make sure that what I'm responsible for and that you're responsible. I mean, you talked a little bit about it in terms of responsibilities and accountabilities and authorities, and let's just get it really clear because, it's it's it's an amazing thing when I see it, see that, this person by the name of MCC, then we'll look at who has become the master Summarizer of every client is now is probably one of the most influential, leaders in North America, in government and politics and business.

00:32:01:06 - 00:32:52:10

Phil Harkins

And he's known all over Canada in this way. People admire him. I watch him in meetings. And that influence part of it. It's not like slanting to your point of view, but it's getting everything collected right. So what was said is clear. What will be done is clear, but he always goes last. And so I often talk about powerful conversation is the fine art of going last, last where you're summing it up and saying, I want to make sure we captured everything here, but you're you're putting a slant on it in a way that gives hope to a solution, gives gives acknowledgment to what people have said that honors everybody's perspective and at the same

00:32:52:10 - 00:33:30:00

Phil Harkins

time unifies a direction. Right. And that's that's influence. And and that's what that's the trust part of it is because of the, you know, trust is very interesting because we're all being judged on our influence. Is it self-interested, which is does Phil have my intentions or his intentions. is does Phil show up and is you reliable or what he's saying does, is it clear.

00:33:30:02 - 00:34:13:16

Phil Harkins

And then the third part of it as he added perspective. And is it as he created, we call it in the book candor, clarity and commitment. And we all know it how it's all tied together because now it comes down to judgment. So if you look at trust, when you think about who you don't trust or someone who breaks your trust with someone who is, talk north and down south, you know, it doesn't have the right intentions or someone that doesn't show up when they said they're going to show up, or someone that bragged about their their credentials and abilities and now can't put it all together and get stuff done, or someone who

00:34:13:16 - 00:34:47:21

Phil Harkins

has bad judgment, someone who has bad judgment at the end of it. And that's why Warren would call these powerful conversations learning conversations. He was the expert at that creating, learning. So at the end of it, did did we all learn something? Do we both walk away more with a deeper understanding? And I use this in mending relationships with people and putting it aside, putting my pride aside when necessary to to just lay it on the line.

00:34:47:23 - 00:35:06:16

Phil Harkins

Even with my grown up children today where I screwed up, messed up, didn't didn't show up the way I should have right. Said sorry. Yeah, on that side of it. Yeah. So you look at these things, you know, to be authentic, you can't be somewhat authentic. That's it for.

00:35:06:17 - 00:35:07:23

Mark Britz

You know, all is you.

00:35:08:00 - 00:35:29:08

Phil Harkins

Know, it's not. You're either authentic is it? Did or did people did you get something. So I say at the end of important conversations to people and almost all the time with this statement, particularly in my family, did you get what you needed and want. And frequently I hear no.

00:35:29:10 - 00:35:30:14

Mark Britz

And then it goes again.

00:35:30:16 - 00:35:54:11

Phil Harkins

Yeah. Because it's like you know like one more thing. Yeah I sort of got it because the candor. Yeah. Clarity is still a piece of it. So I'm not sure of people don't want to say on that. People are reluctant to say if they've got a lot they don't want to, you know, they're they're reluctant. Say it's a trivia little thing, but it it could sink the whole decision that you made.

00:35:54:14 - 00:36:22:09

Phil Harkins

Yeah. Yeah. So when teams do that. And and now we're we're we're working on as you know in our practice on this idea of having category one teams. Yeah. We're teams are practicing having these conversations everything on the table. It's the biggest problem trust on in teams is people not saying there's a conversation going on in their head.

00:36:22:11 - 00:36:41:17

Phil Harkins

And it's that cartoon that you've seen a million times somewhere where somebody says, all in favor, and people kind of put their hands up, and then you see the bubble in their head say, oh my God, we're going down again. We tried that last time. Phil's out of his mind, right? You know why? Why did it? But the hands are up because the, you know, the hands are.

00:36:41:19 - 00:37:06:24

Phil Harkins

Yeah. It's like it's like teenagers. And then, you know, they don't do it anymore, I suppose. But in this past generation, when teenagers would say and their parent would say, and I'd had conversations with parents and they'd say, well, had this conversation was with Matt and had a really good conversation and, and, at the end of it, he was all in on the whole thing, right?

00:37:07:01 - 00:37:20:24

Phil Harkins

And then when I asked, what did he say at the end of it, he said, well, whatever, it's fine. Well, whatever is a really bad thing to a teenager. Yeah. And someone says, whatever it means, I give up and I don't care.

00:37:21:01 - 00:37:21:14

Mark Britz

shutting down.

00:37:21:19 - 00:37:43:18

Phil Harkins

Yeah. And I shut down. So body language is really fun. And that and that part of it by saying that uninfluenced, is that I have become so much more aware from someone who wasn't aware at all of body language, right? Growing up and trained not to look at people in their eyes. It was impolite, you know, I was like, screwed up kid.

00:37:43:18 - 00:38:04:16

Phil Harkins

Really very hard because, you know, I was trained by not not very great communicators. But now what I do is I watch how people are, as they really with me. And I don't mind stopping to say, let's stop for a second here. What's what's going on with that? I just get a sense that we need to go backwards so we miss something or.

00:38:04:16 - 00:38:11:07

Phil Harkins

Yeah, you know, you know, do not don't just keep going because you think you're winning, right? Okay.

00:38:11:09 - 00:38:19:08

Mark Britz

So I'm going to jump in real quick because we got another question. Randy Bregman, who actually, won the drawing for the book, by the way.

00:38:19:10 - 00:38:21:08

Phil Harkins

excellent.

00:38:21:10 - 00:38:35:21

Mark Britz

She's asking us, can you share a time when you try to use this model and felt that it's failed? Failed? You, and then share what you kind of did next year? How did you iterate? You know, how did you move forward if if it did fail? That's a fair question.

00:38:35:23 - 00:39:11:08

Phil Harkins

It's it's a really wonderful question because it's it's, I call it it's mastering imperfection. Because you are going to have some times where it just doesn't work at that time. I'm fine with watching a person and saying, you know, look I sense, I sense something's going on here that do we need to, you know, kind of take, take a break here and and back and or go backwards or.

00:39:11:10 - 00:39:21:03

Phil Harkins

But I'm watching really carefully because if they're not, I call it. And I've written another book which is never published. It's called click when you click with someone.

00:39:21:05 - 00:39:22:07

Mark Britz

Yeah.

00:39:22:09 - 00:39:44:13

Phil Harkins

Because I've been fooling around with this book for 20 years. But the click part of it is when you click, it's like magic. You can make a stupid mistake and someone laughs at it. You know, it doesn't really matter because you're an idiot, right? You know, it's like it doesn't matter. But when it does matter, when you sent someone is closing down, it just means they're sinking into the swamp.

00:39:44:15 - 00:39:50:21

Phil Harkins

sometimes push people try to push you into the swamp, because it works.

00:39:50:23 - 00:39:51:17

Mark Britz

And they want to get.

00:39:51:23 - 00:40:15:08

Phil Harkins

Yeah, they, you know, it's like, you know, you know, it's like it it's it's sort of that what happens in conversations where if they want to win and they don't want to have a powerful conversation, this wants to slow it down or stop you or whatever it is. And you can also, you know, just be honest. I mean, this talk about you talk about all the time about authenticity.

00:40:15:10 - 00:40:49:10

Phil Harkins

Mark, I respect that so much about you that many people have called powerful conversations, authentic conversations, which is they forget and powerful conversations. And I wonder if it was the right thing to call the book. But but that's what came out. Came out of what it was. And then a number of other books came out of crucial conversations and all the rest of the conversations, and they're all good books and but I'm really happy that I was the first, because not that I wanted to be first.

00:40:49:10 - 00:41:12:13

Phil Harkins

It's just that maybe it opened the door for people to really, you know, talk about the Undiscussed rebels. When you having a powerful conversation and trying to get to Undiscussed rebels it's hard. Try it with a teenager you know with they just don't want to talk about it. Sometimes you have to just smile and be there and just stop talking hard for me.

00:41:12:19 - 00:41:36:14

Phil Harkins

Yeah I wasn't trained to do that. You know, as a kid. I mean, you know, you, you know, everything was winning. And my life growing up. And so for this, it's like being at peace with it just to stop. Yeah. And look, you know, and that's the gift that that's a gift that in that has. And using her name that she never felt like she needed to talk.

00:41:36:16 - 00:41:37:07

Phil Harkins

and that.

00:41:37:09 - 00:41:37:15

Mark Britz

Yeah.

00:41:37:19 - 00:42:10:02

Phil Harkins

And, and and she had no problem at all saying to me, let's talk about it later. Let's pick it up again. If she noticed that I was, like, typical, impatient, right? She had a sign coming down the staircase in her first house, which was, He he who? He who listens can have what he wills. I don't know if she had it right there, but it was like every morning walking downstairs.

00:42:10:02 - 00:42:11:02

Phil Harkins

I looked at this sign.

00:42:11:06 - 00:42:12:24

Mark Britz

It was a reminder for April.

00:42:13:01 - 00:42:28:12

Phil Harkins

She never said anything about it. You just put this, that. It was, like, nicely done. It was in a nice kind of handwriting. It was just a cool little thing. I thought at first I thought, she's that's pretty cool that she's thinking about that. Then I realized it was about me.

00:42:29:21 - 00:42:42:18

Phil Harkins

But the question. Thank you for the question. It's brilliant question. I admire it because, you just have to be you have to be aware that you're going to sometimes suffer work the first time.

00:42:42:20 - 00:42:43:08

Mark Britz

Yeah.

00:42:43:10 - 00:43:04:02

Phil Harkins

And it doesn't mean that you still can't have had a great experience for someone. The best thing that you could have was someone could say, we didn't get as far as we wanted to get to right yet. Yet he listened. That's when you know, there's there's a point, you know, the point of the board. Right on that. Thank you for the question.

00:43:04:04 - 00:43:36:20

Mark Britz

Great question. So well, we're we're close to our end. The time actually. man, we should have went for 60. I went for 45. Everybody. I figured everybody was busy. Right. So but but here we are. and I guess the last question I have for you is, you know, we we did prior to this, this webinar with you, five day skill sprint, where over the course of five days, people were introduced to the concepts of the book and applied them to crafting their opening statement, which is a critical piece, that preparation and planning.

00:43:36:20 - 00:44:02:16

Mark Britz

So I don't want to jump the gun here, but it's our last question to you is, what's the one key takeaway, you think that is, you know, something for the participants of the skill sprint or people who've who've who've read the book, what's the one key takeaway as they as they go forward with powerful conversations and their intentions?

00:44:02:18 - 00:44:28:14

Phil Harkins

I guess it's a hard question, but I, you know, I've thought about it all ever. But my my thought on that is, is to is to make this your style, not my style. to just use these with your voice, your message. It's not there's no blueprint that says you got to do it this way. you know, find your own voice and, foreign, foreign.

00:44:28:14 - 00:44:51:18

Phil Harkins

Better the father leadership. We talk about that all the time. And he wrote his last book called Still Surprised, and I called me all excited about it. And it because he was really authentic about that. In the end of the book with Find Your Voice, Find Your Voice, mind your voice so that it's yours. It's not. You have to learn how to take all of this, all these little things and make them yours.

00:44:51:20 - 00:45:15:17

Phil Harkins

And don't try and be fill a mark or it's to be you. And it's, I guess it's a Latin expression I'll leave you with, which is essay theory. I was I tutoring at night as a kid. I was tortured with Latin and is but squandering means to be rather than to seem to be. and that's. And if you're a phony in a conversation, it's over.

00:45:15:19 - 00:45:16:16

Mark Britz

Yeah.

00:45:16:18 - 00:45:32:01

Phil Harkins

Someone thinks you're copying someone else. And so over. So thank you for having me. I, I know we're out of time, and I appreciate very much being a part of this. And thank you, everyone for, you know, putting up with me for this amount of time for 45 minutes.

00:45:32:03 - 00:45:52:01

Mark Britz

So thank thank you. Phil, I think this has been great. Is exactly what, I was hoping for with this deeper conversation and to look at some of this. And I really appreciate the audience questions that came that came forward during this. And, as we progress, I hope we will be sponsoring some more skill sprints, available to people through through pjp.

00:45:52:03 - 00:46:00:21

Mark Britz

and, Phil, again, thanks for for being here and sharing your wisdom with everybody. And, you and I, we'll probably be talking again soon.

00:46:00:23 - 00:46:03:18

Phil Harkins

Thank you. Mark, you did a great job moderating this. Thank you so much.

00:46:03:23 - 00:46:05:19

Mark Britz

Thanks, everybody. Thanks for joining us.

00:46:05:21 - 00:46:10:05

Phil Harkins

Bye, everyone. Take care. Have a wonderful weekend. Take care.